[00:00:03] Speaker A: Welcome to business Drivers, the podcast dedicated to helping you be a more effective leader. Each episode, we connect you to the people and ideas that will help you unlock new growth, both professionally and personally. Business Drivers is presented by Farron, a Minnesota based digital strategy and leadership consultancy that serves firms going through digital transformation. I'm your host, Jim Keane. Our guest for this episode, Allison Gretz, an educator, leadership coach and an expert on leading design teams. I was especially interested in how an expert like Allison grew from being an individual contributor to a leader on large teams in highly fluid environments. It's a great story about someone that isn't afraid to do the hard work to figure out new stuff. And we talked about Allison's new project of building classes for design leaders to help them accelerate their impact. You can learn more about her class schedule at Designbydesign Co. I got a lot out of this one, and it helped me shape my own thinking about my role in helping others learn new things. And it taught me the difference between mentoring, coaching, and being a sponsor. Hope you like this convo with Allison.
So, Allison, hi. Hi. Could you explain the kind of work that you do and the kind of people that you work with to solve their problems?
[00:01:17] Speaker B: Yeah. So I describe myself as a leadership coach and facilitator right at the intersection of the future of how we work and product design. And right now I'm working with a variety of individuals for leadership coaching, executive coaching. I'm also working with a couple teams to not only coach the leader of the team, but their leaders within the team. And they're newly established. So I'm helping them quickly accelerate that process of getting to know each other, establishing working norms, change management, usually that's going on in those, and just being with the team, accelerating their progress through that kind of messy human stuff.
[00:02:02] Speaker A: At the beginning, you've got a really unique background that we'll talk about in a minute, but you've got experience doing digital product design as well as real product design. So are you working with both kinds of teams or have those teams kind of all come together now?
[00:02:24] Speaker B: I think it's a mix. I don't see a lot of places where teams are fully blended yet. There's a lot of, we used to call it omnichannel experiences. So, like, teams that are just working on all the things needed to solve a problem.
And I love that because they can tend to be very, very, they have to be collaborative in order to make it work. If you think of a service like target drive up, that's not just one team or one expertise, it's going to be a conglomerate kind of across, and you need to find ways to help all of those different people get from a to z.
[00:03:05] Speaker A: So it's a little bit of.
[00:03:09] Speaker B: Facilitation.
[00:03:10] Speaker A: And it's designed as a practice.
[00:03:12] Speaker B: Design as a practice. I think some of the fundamentals transfer regardless of medium. Like, I go all the way back to the design of everyday things book. Don Norman wrote that. And whenever I've taught in the know just about the basics of design, the very first thing I do is have people start to catalog the doors that they run into in their everyday life. Like, what are the handles telling you? What is the affordance of those things? Are they telling you to push pull? Why is that? How many signs are there? And you can take those kinds of principles, like visual affordance. What is this thing telling me I can do with it? And that translates to digital as well? What is this interface, this website, this app telling me I can do? And how quickly can I get to my end result there? Or is it weird? Are there usability issues in the way?
[00:04:09] Speaker A: What a great explanation. And as a quick side note, maybe in a future conversation, we'll talk about this. But I work with a lot of folks that are going through digital transformation, and in reality, the folks that I talk to, what they probably should be doing is going through a design transformation where they learn empathy and curiosity about design, which will then help them drive digital transformation. I think they need to hear you go through that thing.
[00:04:38] Speaker B: Some of the basics. It's like we all experience things by design.
[00:04:44] Speaker A: So I'm sure when you were a little girl, you were dreaming of being a coach and a mentor to designers, right?
What did you want to be when you grew up? What was the original plan?
[00:04:55] Speaker B: I don't know if I ever knew, but when I first came to the States, because I'm originally from Scotland, it was to go to art school, and I started out as an illustration major.
I had applied to Glasgow School of Art for textiles. And then within my first six months at art school, I actually switched my major to graphic communications and in the graphic communications program.
This was just when the Internet was kind of booming, and I was really interested in motion, and I started to code things in flash back in the day and learn the basics of HTML. And so all of a sudden, some of my art projects, which ranged from drawing with charcoal and making books, became digital art projects. And then this was right around the time when if you could code anything, anyone would hire you. So having someone with graphic design principles. And then interested in learning how to code and really understanding technology, I leapt right into a digital design career.
[00:06:05] Speaker A: So I think there might be a through line here. But starting out as a visual designer, what gave you the confidence to say, you know what, I'll figure out how to code that out.
Because that's a big shift going from I'm a visual artist to like, let's get into the numbers and the coding and show me how this all works.
[00:06:25] Speaker B: Yeah, in part, I think it's just how my brain honestly works. I think I'm one of those left brain, right brain people where I always want to understand how does something work? Why does somebody make the choices they're going to make? Why do they choose to click on this button here versus this button there? And so I just loved figuring out how things work and that has continued on my entire life. And I'm never afraid of going like, I don't know how to do that, but I find it really interesting. So let's start peeling back the layers of the onion and just digging in.
[00:07:02] Speaker A: So early on in your career, you were working for some agencies, and then you made a jump to corporate, and not just any corporate job. Like one of the biggest talk about that choice to go from art school to advertising and then from advertising into corporate jobs.
[00:07:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I loved my time working in advertising, marketing those spaces, and I learned so much. But after about eight to ten years, I realized I don't want to just sell the thing. I want to make the thing that is being sold. And I started looking around and the place that I wanted to work, it was literally down the street from my agency at the time. And I thought, gosh, that is a brand that I love, which was target.
So I really wanted to go and make the thing. That's all I knew. I don't want to sell the thing. I want to make the thing. The last project I did in advertising was for a fast casual food retailer. And I had put together this huge strategy which was a mix of like, let's have an order ahead app, which didn't exist at the time. Let's let people mix and match your sauces and what's the inside experience like, and all of the things. How do you organize your menu and the IA information architecture of your site? And that brand said, well, thank you very much, advertising agency. We're going to have this smaller agency do this part. We're going to have our social agency do this part.
They cut it all up. And I was in some ways devastated because I wanted to see it happen, and I wanted to see it all come through. And that's what made me realize I was sitting in the wrong environment to be able to truly influence what is it that as a brand, I am putting out into the world? And then how did it do? What happened next? And how do we learn from that? And that's where I started getting really interested in this evolution of Ux, which was then product design. And honestly, I think, pestered the folks there long enough that they eventually were like, all right, okay, we'll hire you. Come on in.
[00:09:20] Speaker A: So you were designing UX digital experiences, web pages, and then you made the move to designing essentially services like total experiences across multiple touch points, online and offline.
What was the inspiration there?
What were you motivated by for that opportunity?
[00:09:43] Speaker B: Honestly motivated by the size of the problem? And how do we solve this? So when it comes to an experience like drive up or pickup, that's not just the digital product that I might have in my hand or on my laptop. That's also the team member fulfilling your orders experience. How are they understanding what you ordered, getting it, letting you know if it's out of stock? How do those two systems talk to each other? And then also, how do you know when you drive into the parking lot, where is it like, what is the signage? What is that starting to say? And then from a business operations standpoint, how do we fulfill those types of orders? Now, obviously, I am not an expert across anything, really, in that entire plethora of things, but what I found myself able to do is in service of solving that problem as a total team, start facilitating and designing really the way that the teams could work together to accomplish that. So how do we just put the smart people in the right places in the room and then facilitate the way that they use all of their smarts to getting to a solution for the problem.
[00:10:56] Speaker A: To make that transition, you yourself had to have a level of curiosity and ambition and confidence to make a move like that. What was your role visa vis the rest of the team? Were you leading at this point? Were you managing? Were you an individual contributor?
[00:11:13] Speaker B: I got to do a little bit of everything at that time, but I was leading individuals. And then I created the first management level in product design at Target, because at the point that I was leading, I had, I think, about 25 direct reports as a director of product design. And you can only imagine that just did not work for anybody.
So then I got really interested in, well, how do departments and organizations design themselves and organize themselves? And started getting really into job mapping and job descriptions and leveling, and then created the first manager role, too, there.
[00:11:58] Speaker A: So again, the through line here is you're figuring stuff out.
[00:12:02] Speaker B: Figuring it out, man, as I go.
[00:12:04] Speaker A: Along and going into it with confidence as a leader, as a manager and a director, how do you develop that sort of curiosity and confidence and desire to figure it out in the people around you?
[00:12:21] Speaker B: Oh, that's such a good question. I think the biggest barrier, because I think everyone's able to, I think the biggest barrier is that gumption or confidence or your frustration level has to rise above the cost of fear of doing it anyway, and coaching folks to realize that if not them, then who? And if not now, then when?
Or I've always said that to myself, too. If not me, then who? And if not now, then when. And I was trying to figure out where that quote comes from because I certainly don't think I invented it. But it has been the thing that even when I am scared of having a point of view, when I do have impostor syndrome, which is constantly, by the way, even if it appears as confidence, you do the damn thing anyway, because who else is going to? And it's interesting, and you're going to learn and you're going to get better at it as you go. And I think what I've been blessed with in my career is enough leaders around me seeing, oh, Allison will just go figure that out. Let's have Allison go do that.
And giving me the chance to fail, giving me the chance to learn as I go and giving me the leeway to just try things.
[00:13:49] Speaker A: What a.
[00:13:51] Speaker B: And I, and I also think sometimes I just did it anyway. So I'm sure there were some leaders in my career who, I definitely got the. You're being difficult at times, but let me do the damn thing anyway.
[00:14:05] Speaker A: Well, I'm going to edit in real time. I like the idea of thinking of that as a gift, but I think in reality, it was probably one of those things where the manager is like, yeah, she's smart. I think it's really important. I don't quite get it. I'm just going to let her go.
[00:14:19] Speaker B: Figure that out and she'll handle it.
[00:14:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:21] Speaker B: Right.
[00:14:21] Speaker A: And it will not be a bag.
[00:14:23] Speaker B: Of crap, most likely, but if it is, she'll figure that out, too.
[00:14:27] Speaker A: Yeah. She'll figure out how to get rid of it. Yeah.
So you were in a mode where you were figuring it out. You were leading, you were leading up to your boss, you were leading around to your peers and down to your team, and you were managing and you were teaching.
It looks like when I looked at your LinkedIn profile, you started teaching almost right away.
[00:14:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:58] Speaker A: So talk about what the interest in teaching was and why it was important to weave that into a very busy schedule.
[00:15:08] Speaker B: Yeah. It's so funny because I wish I could tell you it's because I love handing down knowledge and helping people, but I think actually the instigator was a tad more selfish in that if I can consolidate these learnings, I can scale myself.
Right. And so if I can put these things into a framework that others can then understand, that they can then take and run with, that they can make their own.
It allows me to move on to the next interesting puzzle and challenge. And so that's just what I started doing.
[00:15:46] Speaker A: God, what a great insight.
I think people get blocked as they're developing in an organization because they think their value is in just figuring it out versus figuring it out and then being able to teach it into scale.
[00:16:03] Speaker B: No, I want my teams to be able to figure it out and for them to have the confidence and the self efficacy and belief that it is safe for them to figure it out. And I think that's always going to be a challenge because there's going to be other factors in the organization, like how is performance being measured, how are your partners thinking about you? All of that. But it was so important to me to also give coverage for people to go try things, try it, figure it out. If you mess it up, fix your mess.
But I will always be a safe space for you to have messed some stuff up and then we'll go figure that out.
[00:16:45] Speaker A: That's really great leadership maturity, and it's making me want to put a placeholder here and come back to this topic because you're thinking consciously of yourself as a product in some ways, starting here, and you've got a couple of really interesting takes on. You are the product. Yeah, we might need to come back to that, but teaching started early for.
[00:17:11] Speaker B: You.
[00:17:14] Speaker A: And as you're doing your work now, you're both teaching and mentoring and coaching.
Can you talk about the difference between, first of all, teaching and coaching?
[00:17:30] Speaker B: Yeah, three very different modalities and very different ways of giving to others and helping others for sure. I see. Teaching is very much I'm taking this information, I'm boiling it down, I'm making it learnable and then giving that information to others and bringing them along the way of increasing a skill set of some kind, whether that's a hard skill or a soft skill. Coaching to me is very much like facilitating where you are responsible for holding that space, for that individual to grow really at their own pace and in their own direction. But you are holding that space and pulling it out of them, and it becomes very individual and it becomes very much being conscious of the power dynamic in that space and making sure that you as a coach are not what I call shoulding another person, like saying, well, you should do this. The next thing I would do is this because there's so much judgment in that. And that's where learning to be a coach, I've really learned about the nuance of asking an open question that brings discovery and brings everybody comfortably to the table in that coaching session, too. Whereas teaching is like, no, I've figured this thing out for the most part. Here's how you probably should do it. Here's all of the information that you need to know. So you are the center of power, you are the expert, you are teaching, whereas in coaching, I think you're holding that space and working alongside someone as a partner.
[00:19:13] Speaker A: Yes. So then let's throw in mentoring on top of that.
What is the role of mentoring visa vis coaching and teaching?
[00:19:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I think mentoring then is still you are the expert passing down knowledge, but it's usually more of a one to one thing and your mentee is seeking specific knowledge or seeking specific guidance advice along the way. Now, you may sprinkle a little bit of sort of coach mindset in there, but usually there is that very clear power dynamic. The other modality that I would add in is the idea of sponsorship and how I've always thought about sponsorship as a leader is it's somewhere between mentoring and coaching where you are taking a dedicated interest in your sponsor or mentee and saying, I am going to be championing you and moving things out of your way and helping you get to where you want to be. So it's much more active on the sort of power person versus mentorship is. Feel free to ask me questions. I'll tell you what I know.
[00:20:29] Speaker A: Wow. I think I'd like to go deep into all of those. I know we could because that's a very timely topic for me right now. Yeah, but I really like that setup, and it's a really clear setup.
You've made a career shift now recently to go from leading teams on the side of a client to being a professional external voice.
And can you talk me through what led to that choice? What were you moving towards and what have you learned so far as you've begun the entrepreneurial career and then I've got a couple of follow ups.
[00:21:15] Speaker B: Yeah. I think what led to the choice? Because I've always had a bit of an entrepreneurial bone in my body somewhere. I've always thought, well, I'm going to do my own thing at some point. And at first I thought that was owning my own graphic design firm. And then I toyed around with startup weekends and being a part of the startup community and then was just so busy and interested in what I was doing for the brands that I worked for that that kind of fell away to the side. And I think many, many leaders over the past three to four years have had a similar journey of exhaustion at this point leading through the pandemic.
I actually started a new job in March of 2020.
[00:22:01] Speaker A: Great timing.
[00:22:01] Speaker B: Great timing.
[00:22:02] Speaker A: Why not then?
[00:22:03] Speaker B: Why not? And I just didn't know what was about to hit. But that role was a step up from directorship and into a vp position. So I went from leading teams of 30 to 50 to teams of hundreds in March of 2020.
[00:22:21] Speaker A: That's a very different job.
[00:22:23] Speaker B: Very different job. And as we've spoken about, I am known for transforming. I am a great person to help with change management and think of a problem going from a to b. So even if we weren't in a global pandemic at that time, it was a big job. I had a lot of change to do, a lot of just human things to attend to as well as really big business challenges.
My five month old at the time, their daycare shut down. Oh, my God. And I had a first grader at the same time. And my husband and I just tried to figure out how to make that work, but it was obviously terrible. It was terrible.
[00:23:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I'm sorry, that is another story of just how incredibly difficult everyone has.
[00:23:12] Speaker B: That story, something like that, where it was just really hard and we got on with it and we made it work. We had a postit note, kanban board up for our whole family, like, who's got an important meeting and when and what are my son's tasks? And, oh yes, there's a baby at.
[00:23:33] Speaker A: The same, that noisy one in the corner.
[00:23:35] Speaker B: Well, at least she kind of stayed still for the beginning. Couple months of that.
And there were many, many a phone call where I just had a sleeping baby on me and I was also a VP. Just figuring it out and going through that transition of scaling my leadership and my values and philosophies as a leader and learning what parts of that scale and what parts maybe don't scale as well and really tax me as a human and I ended up in a second VP role that again had big change. I was brought in to staff up and lead a global team. So you add on international time zones, you add on traveling to Mexico to build a team in Mexico.
And that same, I think exhaustion and tailwind from the pandemic was still happening.
So I think like many working parents, especially in 2023, I had this moment of personal reckoning where how is my energy being expended and P-S-I have no energy left. So how do I take a big step back, really reckon with burnout, because it was burnout and what do I want to be doing? And I realized that I want to again, in a way scale, even though now it's just myself. I don't have a team of 200 that I can work through and with, but scale some of my philosophies and ways of thinking and have that time and space to teach, to mentor, to coach and to work alongside other leaders as they figure out what their future of leadership is, what the future of work starts to look like. How do we work as product teams in very human ways, even though we're existing within structures and companies?
[00:25:33] Speaker A: So it might be early to. Well, first of all, that is a really beautiful story and super thoughtful and meaningful. It's really an open and confident sort of retelling of the recent past. I wish everyone was that confident and open and transparent about the challenges that we all dealt with in the pandemic. It was a really weird time.
[00:26:00] Speaker B: It was terrible.
[00:26:02] Speaker A: And I think the folks that are going to come out okay are the ones that are reimagining themselves.
And so it's great to hear your story. I think it's really inspiring and a lot of people need to hear it.
You're relatively new into the next phase. You picked the easy way out. Right? Like, I'm going to go start something brand new.
[00:26:24] Speaker B: Maybe I'll let you know in a year or two if I think it was the easy.
[00:26:29] Speaker A: It's really hard what you're starting, but it's really exciting to get to hear about it.
[00:26:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:35] Speaker A: So you're early. What have you learned so far?
[00:26:38] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness. I feel like I'm relearning a couple key lessons.
That one, you own your own story. How I introduce myself and show up and say, like, here's my expertise, here's what I do. That's all on me. And I've learned that you have to be really clear and crisp and maybe pick one thing that you're leading with and that's been a journey the past few months of me really experimenting. I think when we met, I handed you a business card and basically said it was like a test. What do you think I do with this business card? And I used the Twin Cities startup week, really, as an experimentation ground for introducing myself, like, ten times each day, practicing, figuring out, where do people go, oh, I know how I can work with you, and where am I as a product being too complicated and too difficult to use or too difficult to have an experience with that? People then don't know what to do with me, because, as you say, if you look at my LinkedIn, if you look at this story, I have a smorgasbord of things I could do, and then here's what I really want to do. Here's what people are willing to hire me to do, and here's where the business problems and challenges really, really are. And I think I'm still experimenting in that space with the different clients that I work with right now.
[00:28:03] Speaker A: Yeah. So you're in search of product market fit, just like any.
[00:28:06] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:28:06] Speaker A: And you're trying to design the minimal, lovable Allison.
[00:28:11] Speaker B: For the minimal, lovable Allison. Like, what about this? What about this? And kind of see what happens. Lots of experimentation, which I'm loving. And then at the same time, you put something out into the world, and you sit and you wait for validation, or you sit and you wait for people to say, yes, I'm going to buy that thing or sign that contract to work with you. And there's a lot of space for that impostor syndrome to creep right back in.
[00:28:42] Speaker A: Yes.
You sound like, though, you're kind of navigating that with confidence and a track record of figuring things out. You know how to figure things out.
[00:28:52] Speaker B: I love that. I need to take that recording and just have that with me and listen to it every day, because I do have to talk myself up and say, you've been doing this. You have this track record. You will figure it out. And if you find that you're going in the wrong direction, you'll pivot and do something else. And those are facts. I know that to be true, and I'm still human. And I wake up and I go, oh, my gosh, what did I do? I need to apply for more jobs. I need to figure this thing out. I need to change what I'm doing entirely. Go on fiver and find some freelance work. Anything.
[00:29:29] Speaker A: You have put some product out into the market. You've put some things out into the market. Could you talk a little bit about the accelerator that you are working on right now.
[00:29:39] Speaker B: Yeah. So right now I'm in my second cohort of the UX manager accelerator, and the purpose of that is really to take many, many things that I've learned, having created UX manager positions, having led teams of UX managers, et cetera, and say, hey, I've found some shortcuts. Like, here are the main pitfalls. Here are the things that might stop you from being seen as director material or hinder you from being in the right places to solve the problems you're excited about. Let's talk about these common pitfalls and get them out of your way. So I want to take what might take those UX managers a few years to figure out on the job and say, let's investigate this, interrogate this one. Could this be holding you back and help people plow through all of that? Because it's a tough, tough role. And in the recent, just big tech layoffs, all the things going on, more and more responsibilities are being put on, I think any type of manager and director, but UX managers are close to my heart. So many responsibilities and so many expectations to support across a huge product portfolio, to be leading large teams of IC, to be the uxer in the room for many, many decisions. And I worry. I worry that that group is going to spend a lot of time working on the wrong things and get burnt out.
[00:31:08] Speaker A: You spoke openly and bravely about the experience that you had with burnout.
I think it's common.
I think people refer to it in an offhanded way that makes it seem less serious than it really is in a lot of cases. It can really cause mine was serious.
[00:31:28] Speaker B: It was very serious.
[00:31:29] Speaker A: It can cause some real deep soul searching in some folks and other people just sort of power through it. But as you're looking ahead now, what are you doing to help people become more aware of their own burnout and manage through it or manage around it or thrive despite it?
[00:31:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know if there is thriving despite it. I think that was my maybe point of failure, if you will. And I don't say failure in a bad way, but I think I kept trying to push through despite the exhaustion for too long to, when my body told me, this is enough now, and I had terrible insomnia in the past year, I would say it's only been a few months of the past year that I've been sleeping regularly. It's become a very important thing for me to learn how to manage what I need to be well and whole as a human to ensure that I don't repeat that pattern again.
And that is something I'm still learning. I have to force myself to get out in nature and go for a walk when I could just be jamming on some other things. I have to force myself to have a really good nighttime routine and try and limit screen time and really down regulate my body ahead of sleep.
And it's certainly, I would say, as an entrepreneur, been a very imperfect journey. But I'm keenly aware of when I start to err on not taking care of myself. I start to realize it very quickly. And I think an example is actually Twin Cities startup week, where I think on the Wednesday morning I woke up and I was exhausted, but I had so much fomo and there were so many good sessions and so many things that I wanted to go see. And I had this moment where I had to say, Allison, what you would have done in the past, which would have been get an extra shot in your coffee and keep going, does not work for you now. So you need to do something different. And I actually chose that day to stay in my pajamas and work from my couch and just do some very light thought work. So administrative catch up, like little bits and bobs, took a really good nap, and then I was able to come back at it with the type of energy that I want to on Thursday.
And so I think I'm learning that lesson of proactive energy management, and I don't think I had learned that lesson or realized that as a leader of hundreds of people. But now I've learned that. And I think some of the leaders that go on with great sustainability have that down to an art somehow, whether they call it energy management or not. But they really have this ability to set firm boundaries and take care of themselves first before they take care of other people. And even though I might have said similar things in the past, I don't think I actually did it.
[00:34:29] Speaker A: Yeah, well, that sounds like wisdom in hindsight, but also really good, honest self awareness and an openness to hearing feedback or seeing the signals that maybe what has worked in the past hasn't worked anymore.
[00:34:44] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:34:47] Speaker A: When you are thinking about your work going forward, what would be the ideal? What's your ideal sort of engagement model? Do you want to work with individuals that are seeking coaching or mentoring, or do you want to focus on the kind of product offerings, like courses and classes and cohorts that will allow you to scale? How do you think about.
[00:35:09] Speaker B: It's such a good question. And I don't have the answer. I think for the next period of time, for me, it's a bit of both. I want to be working with leaders and helping them scale their leadership healthily and well. And for me, that also allows me to reengage with more product teams, seeing across different companies, like how are people doing this? How are people thinking about the future of work? And part of me still wants to be doing the online courses because I know that that expands the network and it expands the number of people who can be exposed to ideas of leading differently and thinking about design as a real business driver. It exposes the types of things that I'm doing to a much broader audience and impact. Being able to see my own impact is such a huge driver of what gets me out of bed every morning.
[00:36:11] Speaker A: Well, it's hard to choose.
[00:36:12] Speaker B: Don't make me choose.
[00:36:15] Speaker A: Asking for a friend.
[00:36:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:17] Speaker A: Well, Allison, thank you so much. This was such a great overview of the work that you have done to get you here and what a cool, courageous story of a leader that is committed to scaling their good.
[00:36:31] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you so much.
[00:36:38] Speaker A: Thanks for listening to business drivers presented by Farron. You can find out more about
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